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Seth Godin – Full Stop Failure.

Seth Godin The Subvert Magazine Interview

Seth Godin The Interview. Photo by Brian J. Bloom.

Paul: After our post on making contact with your heroes the emails came thick and fast. “But it’s easy for you” they said. “No it isn’t” we replied. We get rejected all the time. Our precious egos worry about why we were rejected. It has taken us years to get some of our interviews. And when we do, we often ask dumb questions that seemed really clever at the time. But one of the main reasons we share what we’re doing, is to force ourselves to live what we are preaching. So the day we published the mentor article, I got out my list of people I’ve always wanted to interview but had been rejected by. I tried harder. Here’s the first interview from that list, with one of my heroes, Seth Godin…

 

 

Once upon a time

Paul age 11

Paul age 11

Paul: I suspect that there is a time in everyone’s life when all the conditions for who they will become are in place. This picture represents that specific time for me. From the launch of personal computers, to the potential of the space shuttle. From the bullseye on the dart board to the copies of Guerrilla Marketing and The Lord of the Rings which are in the top drawer of that desk. Right there at about Eleven years old I felt immense optimism and freedom. I had absolutely no fear when facing the world.

I want to understand the conditions that mark the start of your journey. When was that defining time for you?

Seth: I’m pretty sure we construct these defining moments long after they happen. I remember that I’ve felt the feeling you’re describing many times–and then, of course, the notion that we were going to be an astronaut or class president or the most popular kid or a successful athlete or a great debater or whatever it is that seemed aligned at the time… that notion disappears, evanescent.

After we’ve put in the work, gotten through the Dip, survived disaster and gotten a bunch of lucky breaks, we look back to one particular one of those moments and anoint it as the one.

Sure, I can tell you how it felt when my first business worked (at least a little) when I was 14, or the silly pleasure I got when I was chosen to run a broken and failing non-profit while in college. I treasure that chemical rush, the one that makes it feel as if all the doors are open.

But for me anyway, the real memories are of the disasters, the dead ends and the moments of being cornered, doomed and done. In most of those moments (at least the ones that I’ve kept on file in my head), I’ve somehow wriggled free and moved forward. That’s the work of the art.

Doomed

Cornered, Doomed and Done. Illustration by Toni Roberts.

Cornered, Doomed & Done

Tell me the story of one of those doomed moments.

I’m not going there, and I’m happy to tell your readers why.

It’s human nature to want the sentimental stories, to want the juicy stuff, the unique, hands-on grit. The problem with this approach is that instead of bringing us together (in terms of the truth, of the abstract universal notions) it divides us, because it gives us a chance say, “sure, that happened to HIM, but my case is different.”

I could tell you about finding my way home from a thousand miles away when I was 14, or about being humiliated at one sales call after another or about making 2000 outbound telemarketing calls for a company with no way out, but none of those stories are proof in the sense that they will work for you. They will merely indulge my ego and our society’s desire for faux intimacy.

Well, I respect your answer, but I’m not convinced. I think the stories bring people together and give us a chance to say “look what happened to them and they got through it, maybe I can as well”. Without the stories, we end up with nothing but bullet points, soundbites and info graphics as the tools for passing on wisdom. We lose the context of the real people and their experiences. So I’m going to keep pushing people for the stories. But I’ll take the abstract universal notions as well.

I don’t disagree with you in principle, which is why I tell so many stories.

But one more juicy story from me isn’t the answer, I think.

I didn’t understand that there was an alternative

So, you left college, but then went and started an MBA. What was your thinking behind that decision. Was that a positive step towards your goals at the time. Or an attempt to avoid leaving the safe world of academia, or something else?

In college, my degree was, Bachelor of science in engineering and applied mathematics, with a minor in philosophy and computer graphics.

There was an expectation that I’d get a job. But doing what?

It’s easy to imagine that blogs and books and all the stories that illuminated our options were around then… that there would be plenty of people to tell me how I could have carved my own path. But there were only three business magazines, very very few books or articles or insight or inspiration. So I needed a job. I didn’t understand that there was an alternative.

But I wasn’t qualified to do engineering, and I had learned from a very long summer (that lasted two weeks) interning on an IBM 360 that doing computer stuff would kill me.

So I went to Stanford. Mostly so I could get my first job, which I did, at Spinnaker Software. That’s where I found my footing.

It’s not fair

Whilst researching for this interview, I discovered that the actress who played the “Good Witch” in The Wizard of Oz used to live in your home town. It got me thinking about mentors and I know we share a mentor, Jay Conrad Levinson. Author of the original Guerrilla Marketing book. For me, Jay provided a window into a world that was exciting and fun. He painted a picture of the endless ways that companies were competing and serving their customers in America. And it was a far more exciting world than the dreary local business scene that I saw in my home town. Tell me about your relationship with Jay, what did you learn from him and how did it change your course?

Hope and fear. Who's got your ear?

Hope and fear. Who's got your ear? Illustration by Toni Roberts.

Yes, Glinda lived up the street. They turned her yard into a park.

I wrote a post about heroes and mentors, and the distinction is important. Jay is a hero to you, I’m guessing. He was to me. Heroes scale… one can apply to a lot of different folks. I’ve found over time that many of my heroes (Jay, Zig Ziglar, Tom Peters, Chris Meyer, Dan Pink, Susan Piver, Jacqueline Novogratz) have turned out to be great people in person as well. It’s not fair to ask someone who is raising the bar for so many to sit down and do custom work for you though.

In the case of Jay, I ended up writing three of the books in the series with Jay’s oversight. In fact, that’s what turned it from one or two books to the behemoth it is now. I built the platform for multiplying the books. I also got Jay his first Mac and an email account he still uses a hundred years later.

As a book packager (that’s what I was doing then), the art was in finding great ideas, and the work was in building books that stood the test of time. My team and I ended up doing 120 books, and I’m proud of at least a hundred of them.

Nonsense

I can understand the scaling issue. I guess Subvert Magazine is our attempt at hacking that idea. We get to reach out to a lot of our heroes and ask things that directly help us, but we also share that knowledge and discuss it, so lots of other people get to benefit as well.

The thing is, it’s so easy to hide. And one easy way to hide from the responsibility of making a difference is by using the excuse that you don’t have a good enough mentor. It’s nonsense.

But that’s not the specific answer you were looking for, about mentors. I’ve had at least a dozen people make that sort of difference in my life, but none of them were famous and none of them are the kinds of mentors you see in the movies. More often than not it’s a single quiet conversation, or a standard that sticks.

I’m a big fan of Napoleon Hill’s virtual mastermind idea. Building an imaginary board of advisers. People who represent different standards you want to live up to. It’s a process that requires no contact with your hero whatsoever but lets you benefit from the guidance of their standards, so long as you’ve read enough of their work to get a good feel for what those standards are.

Bingo.

Seth Godin going around in circles.

So many potential captions, so little space. Seth in canoe. Photo by Jill Greenberg.

900 rejection letters

I think there is probably a point for all entrepreneurs where they have to go “all in” on an early business venture. Surviving that gamble changes them. They no longer see getting a job as a viable fall back position. They become bolder and more independent.

Tell me about the first time that you really went all in.

As an adult, the launch of my book packaging gig was the real deal. I was choosing to go into business. I sold my first book the first day to Warner Books for $5,000. I got half. Off to the races!

And then…

And then I got 900 rejection letters in a row, turned down 30 times each by 30 top publishers. Over the course of a year.

Full stop failure.

That’s when I realized I had no real options and this was the real deal, the course of my life. Stay in or get out, and I really had no choice. I was in.

I totally understand the “no choice” thing. But there’s always a reason why we feel we have no choice. I was a pretty entrepreneurial kid, but at 16 someone suggested I learn a trade as something to “fall back on”. My interpretation of that, rightly or wrongly, was that I would likely fail as an entrepreneur. That desire to prove them wrong cut a path in my brain that gives me the certainty of “no choice”. I’m in, if it kills me. But what was it that made “sticking with it” inevitable for you? 12 months of failure seems like plenty of rational incentive to say “I’m out”, for most people.

I think that’s a totally valid point, and I wonder (deeply) about our internal thermostat. Who sets it? Can it be re-set?

I think we can reset our inclinations. I’m certain that pretending we can is way better than admitting we can’t.

A lockbox, enough money to keep going

You’ve said in the past that you almost went broke 3 times in early ventures. What did you learn to prevent a 4th occurrence? Or, does the way you push the boundaries not entirely remove the possibility of a forth “close shave” in the future?

Stopping wasn’t an option for me, so the cushion was essential. A lockbox, enough money to keep going. I’ve never bet everything on a venture, because that’s just foolish–great work can make up for less investment. If you pick the right project, there’s not much of a correlation between how much money you risk and how well you do. Another key decision was only seeking out projects I could afford to fail at. Many entrepreneurs miss this, always overreaching. If you under-reach a little, nail it, succeed, declare victory and repeat, you’re probably better off.

I know your father has been an inspiration to you. And you’ve talked about various male mentors and heroes. But what about the women in your life? I’ve only ever seen one other man consistently use the female gender as their default, in all their writing. Tell me about your motivation behind that and tell me about the woman who has most inspired you.

Seth and Family

Seth and Family

It’s my mom, for sure. She died in 1999, and I miss her every single day.

She was the first woman on the board of trustees at the famous Albright Knox art museum, she pretty much invented the modern museum gift shop and was always watching my back, raising the bar, insisting on high standards and believing that the world could get better.

I’ve been blown away by thinkers like Jackie Huba and Pam Slim and Blair Miller and Catherine Casey and Pema Chodron, and touched by the work of my colleague Ishita Gupta as well.

The female pronoun is a regular reminder to me that society often defaults to expectations and rules that don’t always make sense or open doors as much as they could.

Pick yourself

Going back to the Wizard of Oz theme. (And why would we not?) In the story, our ruby shoed protagonist spends much of her journey hoping to be saved by the Wonderful Wizard. But when the gang arrive at their destination, they find out that the Wizard has been pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. What pervasive myth have you discovered just isn’t true?

Pick yourself.

It’s that simple, really. Two words.

Society isn’t organized to teach kids to pick themselves, but some do.

I want to fully understand this. What are we talking about here, confidence, self esteem, the value of selfishness in an objectivist way?

Objectivism is nonsense, the mantra of teenagers with nothing better to do than read Ayn Rand. No, I’m talking about the guts to take responsibility for your art. Not to blame the system or the teacher or the parent that didn’t open the door, but the guts to open the door yourself.

How dare I waste it. How dare anyone.

Often, the people I meet with the strongest motivation are fueled by a desire to prove someone right or someone wrong. (A parent, a teacher, a school bully etc.). What is driving you and to what end?

I often run into people who are trying to prove someone wrong or teach that skeptic a lesson. But you know what? The skeptic has moved on and won’t learn a lesson. So it’s wasted anger.

For me, I feel opportunity and don’t want to waste it. There’s this buffet, this all you can eat candy shop, this endless selection of mp3s… what are you going to choose, what are you going to do, what impact are you going to make?

How dare I waste it. How dare anyone.

Seth and Dad

Seth, Seth's jazzy shorts, Dad and Great Grandmother

Shipping art that touches people is my process

I feel like we are getting closer to something with the phrase “How dare I waste it”. That is a passionate statement. Even angry. It hints at a set of deeper values. Obtained from somewhere or someone, that fuel your drive. That’s what I’m digging for, to understand better, what are the underlying values that make you tick.

I think there’s a huge difference between passion and anger. Anger generally requires an enemy, and it always requires some sort of destruction. Passion, on the other hand, has a lot more in common with love and art.

What makes me tick? Philosophers love questions like this, but they’re about levels of abstraction (at some point, it’s blood and neurons and useless biology we can’t impart meaning to… and the abstractions necessarily bring in a new level of falseness each time.

I’m way more interested in habits and mantras and processes that make it more likely you get desired results. And for me, that’s about shipping.

Shipping art that touches people is my process.

So, the process of challenging the status quo, and even worse, writing down your challenge and then shouting about it at the top of your lungs, is one that we seem physically pre-programmed against doing. Where do you sit at this stage with managing the stress of putting out a new idea. Both the mental and physical pressure?

This is loaded stuff, and it changes over time.

How so?

“Loaded” as in there were a dozen deep ideas in just a few questions, and my answer to those questions isn’t the same each day. People aren’t cars. You don’t say, “use this gas, change this oil, and you’re fine.” No, there’s a constant re-negotiation going on internally. Are you in a valley or on a hill or near a cliff? Different math. Are you 20 or 30 or 50? Have you recently won an Oscar?

Post 50, I have a different posture than I did ten years ago. Not sure if it’s good or bad, but it’s true. As my leverage goes up, I can’t help but take smaller bets. It’s easy to get addicted to the feeling that this might just be the one, that it’s ALL on the line and that you and only you can sink this basket or score that goal.

Maturity kicks in, though, and you start to realize that opening doors is just as important as walking through them yourself.

The 10,000 hour rule is legit

I worked with a super smart tech guy once. People would fire seemingly impossible technical problems at him every day. He would nod at them and say “hmmm, that’s interesting”. He approached every impossible situation as an interesting puzzle and he was a puzzle solving machine. That perspective was a key feature of his operating system. What makes the Seth Godin operating system run?

Mostly I notice things. If I don’t know why something is the way it is, I try to reason it out. Do that a lot and “hmmmm” becomes a habit.

The 10,000 hour rule is legit. If you spend enough time working through really difficult challenges, you’re just going to get better at it.

In terms of turning things into puzzles, I think most of us can learn a lot from Pema Chodron and the notion of Shenpa and biting the hook. If you let the lizard brain run amok, if you turn problems into referenda about you, about your goodness as a human being, it’s not going to end well. A key to discernment is to figure out the truth of what you’re looking at and act on it, not let it act on you.

I’d like to be better at this, but I’m better than I was.

Don't let the lizard brain run amok

Don't let the lizard brain run amok. Illustration by Toni Roberts.

What you need to do right now

So we’re all being held back by our fears. Fear of criticism. Fear of learning the truth about ourselves. Fear that we aren’t smart enough to trust our own instincts. Fear that we’re putting our faith and time into a project that isn’t going to pay off. What can readers of this interview do right now to get past that fear and move forward with that project they are stuck on?

It’s actually not complex:

Fail.

The single best way to overrule your fears is to call their bluff by making the fear come true.

Do something you know will fail.

And then fail again.

Once you fail at what the lizard brain is so petrified of, it will lose its power of you.

Go Fail

Readers, here’s my challenge to you. Go get out your list of failed attempts. If you don’t have one, make one, right now. You don’t need me to tell you what to put on it. It already popped into your head. That call you were going to make. That email you were going to send. That decision you’ve been putting off.

Look at it again. Try harder. Ask yourself, what would I do if I wasn’t afraid of failing? Then do whatever you need to do. Fail. Gloriously. Tell us what happened in the comments, after you’ve done it. We will wait.

Seth Says Posters

Seth Says Posters

You've got the doll, get the poster.

Subvert subscribers should check your email in-boxes for our exclusive office paper printable posters. Guaranteed to raise the energy of the most soul-less cubicle. There are 4 to inspire you. If you’re not a subscriber yet, you can join us (and get the posters) via the green box below.

Special thanks

To Seth, especially for digging out the personal family photo’s.
To our amazing illustrator Toni Roberts. Go hire her while you can. http://toekneedesign.com
And to photographer Brian J. Bloom for the opening portrait. http://www.brianbloomphotographs.com

  • http://www.christinebuijs.com Christine

    I can definitely relate to being told while growing up that I should have a “fall back position” and I always remember how vehemently I rejected this idea. My dad also wanted my art to be a “hobby” which only made me more determined to make it a lifestyle and career, because it’s always been more than a hobby to me. So I like the discussion of “all in or not.” If you always follow what everyone else tells you you should or everyone else does, you’ll never have the guts to innovate or stand out or take rejection the way entrepreneurs need to.

    Also love Seth’s take on “seek out projects you can afford to fail at.” And his advice to go and fail at the things you’re most scared of as a way of conquering your fears. The more I learn the more I realize that making mistakes and being okay with making those mistakes is so key to learning. You can’t make any one idea too precious… the more you go out and do things and make mistakes and learn and move on, the faster you’ll learn and grow.

    So with that said, one thing I’ve failed at a few times and will continue to fail at until I get past it:
    -Getting a film I’ve made into TIFF (the Toronto International Film Festival)
    -Getting a film I’ve made into ANY film festival

    And another thing I continue to fail at:
    -Achieving a level of fitness I feel confident and good about

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      You continue to fail with style and class Christine. You have too much talent and you’re in the game. You just have to keep putting in the time, hustling as you go. Getting bolder and bolder. On the fitness front, keep your eyes peeled. Lots more fitness videos from world class trainers coming up. And more from The Champions Companion soon.

  • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

    Again, a special thanks to Toni for the amazing art work. And Brian for stepping up at the last minute. Love to hear what you guys think. Paul.

  • http://www.theideaartist.com Umair Kazi

    I think you’re right about the power of stories, Paul. I’m subscribed to your blog because of an inspiring story that you guys put on a long time ago instead of the usual ‘about me’ banter. I suppose Seth CHOOSES to be inspirational for his ideas rather than his experience against adversity.
    Any way, great interview. Thanks for sharing.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hey Umair, yes our infamous 10 page about us :) It’s hidden at the moment while I make it even longer to incorporate the successes and struggles of our current health and fitness experiments. When it’s up, we actually get more email about our story than anything else. Maybe one day there will be a part 2 to this interview, where we all get to hear Seths abandoned 1000 miles from home story. Sounds like good old Victorian self reliance training to me. Didn’t do Richard Branson any harm either. Thanks for commenting. Paul.

  • http://www.pivotguild.com Alyson Miller

    So much rich juice here, it’s hard to focus on just one sip. But I’d say that, as an entrepreneur who also supports other entrepreneurs and artists in creating to completion, Seth’s call to “Pick Yourself” is both classic and a conundrum. Classic in the sense of Emerson’s Self-Reliance – a core philosophy of claiming your place in the natural world, drawing from inner “knowing” & self-direction to bring forth your unique gifts. And a conundrum, because it can be misinterpreted to mean act independently of others – the myth of entrepreneurs as isolated, heroic or tragic figures. Even someone like Steve Jobs has been cast as a brilliant loner when in fact he built a supportive team to make his visions realities – AND suffered terribly when his community cast him out at one point in his career. So as social beings, I’d say by all means “pick yourself” – as in trusting your self-knowledge, practicing through failures to mastery, seek validation for useful support and not approval. But also seek community because it is our nature and collaboration often leads to evolution!

    PS Congrats Paul on an interview worthy of discussion and re-circulation. Loved Toni’s illustrations too.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Alyson, “Congrats Paul on an interview worthy of discussion and re-circulation” thank you, that means a lot.
      I think the key to your solution is for people to define the “community” they seek very carefully. A word that is completely overused and abused online, but ironically its the internet that allows us to self select more supportive people to “surround” ourselves with in support of our uncommon values. It’s funny but even in the “creative” communities, hard lines are drawn. We found our early niche supporting musicians who also wanted to create art. The traditional music press weren’t at all interested in such a radical departure. But we love people who blur the lines. The challenges with being part of a community always come down to status. Traditionally I think the lines of where we stood, in a much smaller group, where clearer. My ideal picture of a supportive work focused community – working with the best people from a whole other bunch of different disciplines. But not people trying to do what we’re doing. 20 writers / musicians / carpenters / marketers / whatever in a room is boring. 20 individuals who share similar underlying values is interesting. And I think even the values have to be similar, not the same. I don’t agree with everything Seth says, or most people we interview for that matter. And that process of comparing and contrasting and reasoning makes everyone a little smarter I think. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Paul.

  • Tammy Allen

    I learned so much from this interview and yet not. It reconfirmed many things I already know but don’t practice. The concepts are so fundamental, especially fail, do it over and over again, etc. I’m sad to say my lizard brain is often the master of the ship. I have no excuse yet I have so much. My biggest fall back excuse is that I have survived many personal trials. I have pretty much accomplished what I set out to do but I never push it to the limit.
    (Before I go on. I too believe in hearing other stories. I have been going to therapy for years. One of the basic tenets of group therapy is not to give advice but to share how you relate to another’s experience. Hence I’m often accused of making it all about myself in non-therapeutic situations.)
    But since you asked; I will say the one of the things I need to revisit is my music. I achieved success in Europe and a little more than locally. When I had a child I stopped. I want to get back to it and do it better, without all the faux rock star antics that ruin the purpose. I’ve already begun noodling on the guitar.
    I also want to become a better writer. I write advertising copy for a living and I have reached a new plateau. It’s clear my writing has improved immensely. I have a wonderful mentor and boss. I must continue to hone that skill while re-kindling my song writing. I want to branch out and tackle essays, fiction, and non-fiction to discover which suits me most.
    My heroes are limited to my exposure. Seth is definitely on my list. Thank you for a more personal glimpse into the mind of Mr. Godin.
    I look forward to finding new heroes here.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hi Tammy, I think the real opportunity here isn’t to learn something new. Seth with hair, Seth in a canoe, even the punchy posters headlines aren’t the point. They just set the stage for you and me and anyone else to notice where we’re falling short. After that, there’s a window of opportunity. It might last 10 seconds or 10 minutes, or 10 hours. But that’s when it’s down to you to take some action. Pick up the guitar or the pen or whatever and take the first step. All I can offer and it’s not much, but it’s all I have, is the promise of recognition for people who take up that challenge and DO something. I’ll big up those people all day long. That’s what this Community of DONE idea is all about. So I’d love to see / read / hear your next piece of work. I’d love for you to post about it here. Paul.

  • Tammy Allen

    So many excuses not so much.

  • http://news.rutgers.edu/focus/issue.2011-04-28.9773704632/article.2011-05-10.4250092229 Scott McLane

    Thanks for the interview… As someone left homeless at the age of 39 due to addiction, I understand what it’s like to be “cornered, doomed and done.” Having the staff of a crisis center ( a “lock- down”) speak about my life in terms of which men’s shelter they would me send me…let’s just say, my entire life depends on me being “All In” when it comes to sobriety. My dad, a WWII vet and college grad, died alone in a horrible room over a bar after losing everything to alcoholism.

    Anger, fear and self-pity have all needed to be addressed, acknowledged and managed on my journey back. I recently returned to (after “brief 18-year hiatus) Rutgers University and was one of the featured graduates on their website… A warm and fuzzy redemption type video and story… Not one family member attended the graduation ceremony… Pick yourself, to me, means accepting that the things I can’t change, while still having the courage and humility to ask for some help as I take personal responsibility for the rest of my life… I’m speaking to about 200 guys tomorrow night in a prison in Newark NJ; I always tell them to think about the rest of their lives when they return to the little room in which they currently reside.

    It would be impossible to list or quantify what I lost… I’m on a mission to get it all back… The story is just beginning…

    [ check out Scott's video, click on his name. Paul ]

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hey Scott, I can’t help thinking we’re all in a “little room” sometimes and it has nothing to do with geography and everything to do with the balance of optimism and pessimism. I think a University is a great place to start again. Education at its best is all about wonder and discovery and possibility and optimism. I hate the phrase “good luck” but haven’t invested the time in coming up with a better alternative. I don’t think you need luck with your speaking gig. Saying yes to it is a big win to start with. Being back at Uni is a big win. Not trying to mask the anger, fear and self pity with anything is a big win. So it doesn’t sound like you need me wishing you luck. Just stick with it, sounds like you’re winning. Thanks for you comment.
      Paul.

  • http://eleventhcommandment.com.au/ Henry Holland

    Hey Scott, just read your article and watched your video. Huge congratulations on completing your studies, that’s fantastic. Onwards and upwards :)

    Henry

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    I’m still reading the interview, but had to say that I wish Seth would have given you that story. His ideas stick with me so much longer when they’re connected to his personal experiences.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Andrew, I tried, but it would have been frightfully rude to do a paxman, we’re british don’t you know. :) http://youtu.be/1KHMO14KuJk

  • http://www.likedandtrusted.com Carey Giudici

    For years Seth’s blogs have challenged me to think and accept my “weirdness.” He’s also helped me clarify and add relevance and value to my process that helps entrepreneurs, job-seekers and others identify and then communicate their Why. They can now add the power of brainstorming to any professional messaging.

    It’s time we all learned how to effectively escape from “factorythink” forever. To learn how to flourish in a convergence culture, so we’ll easily nurture collaborations that are intentional, temporary and tactical. As avid members of Seth’s tribe, we owe him nothing less.

    [Note to Paul: Always put punctuation marks inside your quote marks. Otherwise you distract us from your message]

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hi Carey, thanks for your comment.
      “factorythink” is that worrying about punctuation?
      5 proof readers. If they didn’t catch it, I don’t care about it :)

  • http://sarahpalisi.com Sarah

    That’s a real great interview, Paul. I like how you insisted about aspects you wanted to know about. I reckon it could be easy to get intimidated by one of your heroes. I second Seth’s statement about mentors and how they can change your life and your perception in a really short time span and I will definitely look into Napoleon Hill’s virtual mastermind idea.
    It was a very important lesson for me to learn: There’ll always be failure. It’s not like at one point you pass a line and from there on you’ll keep succeeding no matter what you do.
    But then again what is the definition of failure? If it forces you to re-think, re-evaluate and challenges your passion and goals. If it activates you to keep moving can you even call it failure?
    And at the same time: just because things didn’t work out as planned doesn’t mean I achieved nothing. Even though I know this now, I have to remind myself of that regularly.
    For example, recently I sold my illustrated goods at a design market as I do from time to time. Having done that just a month before at a different location with tremendous success I expected a lot from this one, and: it didn’t happen. The sales were okay, but not what I expected. But also they were also a lot higher than in the year before.
    With a bit of time passed I can acknowledge that and think about improvements for the next time.

    Something else I haven’t succeeded in yet is:
    -Getting featured in renowned design relevant magazines and websites
    -Being commissioned by renowned magazines I’d really like to see my work in

    Can I work harder on achieving those goals? Hell, yes and I will.

    And I share the lacking fitness level with Christine. I am starting to practice Yoga now and am determined to be okay with at whatever pace that’s going, I just want to keep it up and going.

    :)

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Sarah, remember “make like a scientist”? they don’t get emotional when a test doesn’t go to plan. (thats NOT a girl dig) They just reason out what happened and keep testing. We have to go against our instincts and do the same sometime. Advertising in the competitive world we live tends to follow the same patterns anywhere. There are likely a dozen factors that make the most profitable stall in the market worth while for the vendor. Its the same with a google ad and a landing page and a sales letter. You’ll never hit all 12 on the first go. Lets brainstorm what might effect your sales;
      - your location within the market (big factor)
      - your familiarity to shoppers (did they see you before, therefore trust you more)
      - how is your stall dressed, as eye catching as the best one in the place? if not you’re missing eyeballs
      - how are you dressed? same as above.
      - what’s the weather like?
      - how enthusiastic are you 2 hours in, 4 hours in, 7 hours in?
      - how’s your smile?
      - how easy is it to demonstrate the benefits of your products?
      - how much do your products make your buyers look funny/clever/sexy/smart/something else?
      - how busy does your stall look? – best tip ever – have a friend with a big old video camera interview you every hour for a minute or two.
      - how confident are you in telling people what you have is great – this is a market, ham it up.
      - what else?

      all these things individually might add up to 2 or 3 or 4 more sales. together and over time they mean profit and fun over loss and misery.
      Find a way to stick with it, break it down, test each element, see what makes a difference and focus in on it. Never reply on one off hits. The only person who wins is the event organiser.
      Incorporate some light aerobic into your more ambitious market pitch and its a winner all around.
      You’re too talented and too German not to make this work.
      No Grit, No Glory!
      Paul.

  • http://www.economicliferecovery.com Nicholas

    Hi Paul,
    I am not writing this comment because I completed the “action” for your challenge. I am writing this comment because it IS the action for your challenge. I have been reluctant to write on others’ posts for a while and your “be a … creator, not a consumer” sidebar hit me right in the face!”

    As a “recovering” hedge fund manager turned financial copywriter … there are so many parallels and tangents in this one post (and on your site) … I could write all night. But for the sake of new relationships and not wearing out one’s welcome … here’s the gist.

    I came to your sight from a twitter link of someone I follow (so do over 94,582 others). And about a month ago, he and I had the opportunity to sit and chat for a couple hours at a conference. He’s a full-on copywriting guru and I know he could be a phenomenal mentor for me.

    As a new financial copywriter he liked my ideas and direction. But I wasn’t completely clear on where I was going … yet. I’ve had mentor’s on the finance side before. But there is a whole new level of vulnerability when it comes to writing … hence the hesitation (and the need for action with this comment).

    Anyway … thanks for the inspiration! It helped me get clear on few things … one being … “Action is the price of admission to the community of DONE.”

    I will keep you posted on the progress … especially when I get my new mentor.

    Cheers,
    Nicholas

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hey Nicholas, thanks for commenting. I took at quick look at your blog. I know who you’re talking about. I’d love to interview him. I can also see a touch of influence in the style of your last 2 posts. I love them and think it’s a great direction to go in. What he is good at, and you obviously have great potential for is not being boring! I think right now the biggest challenge we all have online is cutting through the endless noise. The biggest mistake I see is people optimising everything for keywords and not people. I can see how writing is harder than “hedge funding”. Its personal. Personal is scary. So now you’ve warmed up with a comment, what are you going to do next? What’s the action required now to get your mentor? Lets make it happen! Paul.

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  • http://www.lifeonyourtermsbook.net Shann Vander Leek

    Hey Paul, I’m so glad I found your blog and I always enjoy interviews with Seth. I especially resonated with
    “Action is the price of admission to the community of DONE.” Happy to find reference to Pema Chodron. “Getting Unstuck” is a great teaching. Here’s to failing. Gloriously.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hi Shann, thanks for your comment. Had a quick look at your site, we’ll have to talk about workbooks sometime. I’ve been playing with more action oriented book formats for a while. As for the community of DONE, it’s a new idea and a gamble. It’s so much easier to get “interaction” talking about low entry topics that result in the appearance of community but nothing actually getting done. It raises the bar scarily high for everyone including me. But my gut tells me that’s where the most interesting people come alive, jumping over the highest bars. I’ve had a few really touching emails in the last couple of days, people making life changing decisions. That makes it all worth while for me. Whether I’ll ever be able to convince people to share those stories publicly or not is another matter. The idea might fail if they don’t. But I’m going to try, because each action story changes this from a passive viewing experience to an active opportunity. I’m hoping to spread the idea to other sites if it works.

  • http://beyondsustainabilitymag.net Matt Lynch

    ‘Fail. Gloriously.’ Love this mantra.
    So happy to stumble across this article, and your work, what a great community and example of the positive impact the internet can make when used constructively…
    …so in answer to your challenge at the end of the article…Long story short:
    – Made my first million by age 29.
    – Lost said first million by age 31.
    – Spent next two years wandering the world in search of people, places, and projects making a positiave impact upon our planet.

    I am a recovering capitalist currently exploring regenerative design sciences at the forefront of human innovation. My travels have taken me from Hawaii to Australia, New Zealand, Mongolia, Germany, and back.

    My brother had a Japanese quote taped to his bathroom mirror in college that I’ve never forgotten: ‘Fall down seven times, get up eight.’

    Keep on keepin’ on everybody – the world is in need of good news… and YOU ARE the good news! ;-)

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hey Matt, thanks for commenting. Well failed! :) Reminds me of the story of the IBM exec (i’m paraphrasing) who lost a million bucks on a project. The vice president suggested to the boss of the company that he be sacked instantly. The boss said – sacked! why on earth would we sack a guy we just spent a million bucks educating?
      I don’t know what regenerative design sciences are, but a quick look at your site had me thinking about a really cool open source technology site ( http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac ) that teaches people how to make various machinery parts that can be used to build a village. Simple tractors and brick making machines and all sorts of really cool stuff, really inexpensively without having to rely on traditional suppliers. I came across them on TED.com are you familiar with the site? Love he quote, you have to say it with an accent for it to work ;)

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  • http://www.enjoypresenting.co.uk Alan Donegan

    Great article. Thank you. Love the advice on failing.

    It is something that has stopped me so often in the past and something that I need to still work on. Failing faster and learning to enjoy it!

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hi Alan, thanks for commenting.
      Bruce Lee said “learn to die”, the samurai used to meditate on dying 1000 different ways, the stoics practiced living like peasants. Whatever we’re afraid of, we need to condition ourselves against by doing it. Ancient wisdom that sometimes makes our fears seem silly.

  • Melanie Wead

    I loved your interview with Seth. I became a fan of his about 4 years ago when I read TRIBES and now I’m adding him to my “heroes” list. His contribution to END MALARIA is the latest addition to my reading list. BTW I thought the interview was dead on target and your questions were great. Glad I found your website, too. I shared this information with my fellow Martha Beck Life Coaches and also got great thanks!

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hi Melanie, thanks for the kind words.

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  • http://fadi.el-eter.com Fadi El-Eter

    Kudos to Toni Roberts who created the above illustration of the brain lizard! It’s amazing how the person can understand the whole article by just looking at his pic.

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      Hi Fadi, I’ll pass on your regards. Toni is a girl by the way.
      Paul.

  • http://wildwomanfundraising.com Mazarine Treyz

    hi Paul,

    Failed at many things, most recently:
    2009-2010 Looked into starting a tea business, got as far as making a business plan, registering the business, getting the license, the web domain and setting up the cart, then never used the cart, when we realized we didn’t actually want to sell retail rain or shine every week.

    2010 Looking into starting a software business based around pawnshop software, turned out the software guy we were going into business with had a bad product, luckily I did some market research before we got too far down this path

    2011 Our Internet Startup, Common Tastes, made a business plan, developed many micro-sites and twitter accounts, we brainstormed feverishly and programmed and we worked really hard on it for months, then did a pitch competition and failed, one of the founders had a plan B to get a job in NYC and he just did.

    Through all of that we learned a lot.
    And learned that the business you’re already in, that you enjoy doing, is the best one.
    For me, that meant writing and teaching and luckily I get to do that every week. Published my first book in 2010 and about to publish my second book in 2012. And I couldn’t be happier.

    Peace,

    Mazarine

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hey Mazarine,
      thanks for sharing your failures! Lots and lots of valuable lessons in there I’m sure. “which business?” is one of those classic questions and of course for any entrepreneur struggling to make their mark, it’s easy to have “the grass is always greener over there goggles”. I think for most of us, we could be perfectly happy and successful in any number of different businesses. Its not the vehicle but the values that fuel us. That should always be at the very start of any business checklist. Does this business perfectly match my deepest values and does it allow me to express them fully. For anyone who isn’t clear on what their values are, start digging. Until you know yourself you’ll struggle to stay afloat in the sea of self doubt and conflicting gut feelings that can be entrepreneurial life. A good place to start is Simon Sineks book “start with WHY”. Always know why you want something and the values that lie behind that WHY. Once you know what makes you tick, good or bad, you’ll have the battery power to stick with anything, all the way to success.
      Glad you found your track Mazarine. Keep rolling.
      Paul.

  • http://www.davidlano.com David Lano

    Paul,

    This is my first time here, my good friend and business partner Chais Meyer shared this interview with me. He introduced me to Seth Godin “way back in the day” and Seth, to this day, continues to be someone I look up to and gain inspiration from. I really appreciate your forward and probing questions. Often, interviews can be dry and ho-hum. This however, had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. Great stuff. As Alyson Miller said in the comments, “so much rich juice here” – this is packed full with so much wisdom and encouragement.

    I’ve always been a big fan of using failures as launchpads and learning from mistakes, however I’ve never actually started a “Failed Attempts” list. Great idea! Just got mine started.

    I won’t ramble on…but wanted to say thank you. I’m definitely subscribing to your blog.

    -David

    • http://www.subvertmagazine.com Paul

      hey David, thanks for your comment. I can’t ask for more than to have people on the edge of their seat, as long as I push them all the way off the seat at the end and into action! Well done on starting the failed attempts list. I can’t remember what my spec. for the failed attempts list was, but I’ll add, incase its not obvious, that the purpose of such a list isn’t to keep trying at something that failed because it was just a bad idea. We must have a good idea of why we failed in the first place. Sometimes things fail because the rest of the world just doesn’t share our vision. Or our vision is too far ahead of its time. Sometimes those failures are ok to leave where they are. I’m not encouraging flogging a dead horse for the sake of tenacity.

      But far more often we fail because, as I mentioned in my comment to Mazarine, we haven’t understood and aligned our real values carefully enough. Most often this shows itself in the form of chasing someone elses vision. Especially when we think there’s a fast buck in it. But we aren’t intrinsically motivated by what we’re doing. This is the more practical version of “do what you love”.

      And of course even more common is failure by fear. We don’t get past the starting blocks because we never understand our own fear response. We don’t cultivate and condition ourself against it. But if we want to be our best we have to be able to step back out of our emotions and observe ourselves, coldly and rationally. I like to use Tennis metaphors, even thought I don’t play. But on TV these days the tennis commentators measure every hit, every miss, every dropped back hand or forehand or when it hits the net. When you start to compare players in this way you clearly see where they are weak or strong. And how to beat them. We can, bit by bit look at ourselves like this. We can take the view of the scientist, the cold observer.

      Ask, where am I strong? Under what conditions?
      Where am I weak? Specifically?
      How will I work on my weaknesses in a planned strategic manner to turn them in to strengths or, how will I continue to build on my strengths so they make my weaknesses irrelevant? And always, through the process, be checking ourselves. The ultimate question for entrepreneurs – am I being honest with myself, or acting out of fear?

      My favorite question to ask myself is – what would I do if I wasn’t afraid? Those are the things that should be on a failed attempts list. Because after we give ourselves a kick in the ass, they are easy wins.

      Come back and share your results with your failed attempts list.
      Paul.

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  • http://www.economicliferecovery.com Nicholas

    Hi Paul,

    I am back… and I have joined the Community of DONE!

    As I mentioned in my prior comment … I was not writing the comment because I completed the “action” from your challenge, I was writing the comment because it was the “action”. You then challenged me to take the next step and go after my mentor … take “the next action”!

    Well I did. And it worked out fantastic. Not only did I get him to respond to the potentials of mentoring … but he also agreed to do an interview with you. We got two birds with one stone.

    Thanks for pushing me with … “well what are you going to do next?”

    I did the “next” action and paid the price of admission to the community of DONE!

    Looking forward to seeing the interview come to fruition, and I will keep you posted on the mentoring process.

    Again thanks for the push!
    Cheers.
    Nicholas

  • http://www.MaryKathrynJohnson.com Mary Kathryn Johnson

    You don’t have to wait for my failure…Just accomplished it 12/31/11, and started over on 1/1/12!

    Once you turn on your entrepreneurial brain, you can’t turn it off. Once you experience something – successful or not – you can’t un-experience it. For example, once a baby learns how to walk, she can’t unlearn it, she then runs!

    The hardest part of failing, isn’t the failure itself, its the fact that most of us don’t separate ourselves, separate our souls from the failure. We think the failure will seep into our soul like we failed at being human. We fear we will become one with it, and wear it like a burden weighing us down as we walk hunched over through the rest of our pitiful life.

    If only we knew that through failure, we are liberated, and now truly know that nothing stops us but death…and even that doesn’t stop the writers who have self published.

  • http://www.connectedculturebook.com Jerry Allocca

    I love the story about the 900 rejection letters. I first heard it when hearing Seth speak at a conference in NYC. I tell Seth’s story to others anytime I hear someone talking about giving up or getting too frustrated when somethings not happening the way they want it to happen. I’ve seen many people who are under the impression that success comes right out of the gate. But our brains are wired to learn from failure and mistakes. Rock on Seth and Angel!